how to make tempera paint without egg


Whether its a free drop-in workshop or one of our fun and engaging Art Detective trails, the RA is brimming with colourful paintings and sculptures that are waiting to be explored. Reach into your container of natural pigments with a spoon or something and bring out some of that colored powder. With our homemade tempera paint ready,we got busy painting. and i totally concur on the sharpie fascination! I wanted to tell you why vinegar and waters are used when making tempera. Mix 1 cup of white vinegar and 1 cup of warm water in a bucket. PS in addition to painting on stones.I do a bit of stacking them, too! You can put your mixed tempera into the egg she'll halves and put in a crate to hold, for ease of use. Is it a fungus, or a decoloration? For a matte finish, add the liquid starch. Oh, I almost forgot., the vinegar, and also removing the membrane keeps the egg yolk attracting bugs or going bad on the wood. Acrylic paint, however, can deteriorate and be damaged in a number of ways even before it is opened. Learn old style painting and practice making the tempera making to your personal mixes, and you can make old world art! It adds luminosity to the paint above it.. Mix it up. The humble egg has proven itself to be an enduring painting medium throughout art history. Just as with Oil paints, the recipe is a simple mixture of the binder with the pigments to produce the proper consistency. Sift that egg through your fingers letting the white run out, leaving behind the yolk. The paint colours could be mixed, and they were fun to work with! The world really is your oyster when looking for suitable materials - just up to you to find what you can! I also turned the sink on and gently rinsed the yolk. Hawthorn berries - I hoped that these would make a nice red pigment when crushed. To add pigment, put a little of the paste of ground color in a cup and add about an equal bulk of the egg yolk mixture. Faster than watercolor, the drying is immediate. How do I paint hot glue so that it's slightly translucent? And when they were tempered with eggs, they were called egg tempered paints and eventually earned the nickname Egg Tempera. This is a helpful post. JOYIN Washable Paint for Kids 42PCS - Non-Toxic Kids Paint - Tempera Paint Set (2 oz Each), Liquid. You really can't go wrong by simply using the most affordable paint around to get that touch of color on clay. To make egg tempera paint, powdered pigments culled from things such as stones, sticks, bones, and the earth were mixed with water and thentempered with a binding agent such as an egg. thnx. By then, tempera paint was used on gessoed wood panels. Tinviel prefers hers matte. Isnt that surprising? Although pigments do not have, in general, a large effect on Can the Spiritual Weapon spell be used as cover? Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Take a journey through 4,000 years of art-making across Spain and Latin America, guided by RA curator Adrian Locke and Director of the Hispanic Society Museum and Library, Guillaume Kientz. How can I make egg-tempera that doesn't deteriorate? Lastly, having very little impact, the pigments themselves affect the quality of the paint, especially by influencing the drying process. So the two schools are . Kvass was added in an amount equal to the egg yolk and in place of adding water. I have not tried comparing it to other tempera techniques. was handled with different methods. Here, I learned how to make my own inks and charcoal sticks. Hope this helps. If the paint dried a little on the artist's palette then it could easily be resurrected with a damp paintbrush. Flagstone: what to use, sand, cement, or gravel? http://www.sharpie.com/Pages/GlobalLanding.aspx, Hi Sophie! If you look at old paintings, you can understand why blue was reserved for only Virgin Mary or very specific highlighted features in a painting. Additionally do not consume any of the foodstuffs when used for the paint, and be careful not to inhale powdered material when grinding material into pigmented powder. Yes, traditional gesso is a long process, to allow you to paint egg tempera on woodbut the paint works well on rocks and paper too. Reply Arts & Crafts Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for artists and crafters. What I do is wrap the stones in a bandana and crush with a hammera mortar and pestle might be a more elegant way, Ill admit. Similarly, using the juice of the berry paste rather than the paste itself, an orangish hue could be made, which I later used a little on the sky section of my painting. The finished painting isnt Tinviel s final step. The thick consistency is hard to paint. The most well-known type of tempera paint is probably poster paint. The paint dries unbelievably fast, and was favored by the Renaissance painters for its stability. Egg was used as a paint binder by the ancient Egyptians and Greeks thousands of years ago. Preparing the mixtureFirstly, break an egg and separate the yolk from the white, taking care not to break the yolk as you do so. Your painted rock is lovely, but its also helping to contaminate the neighborhood with plastic, as sun and rain wear off toxic molecules and what-not. Place 4 tablespoons of white vinegar in a bowl with the egg yolk, and stir thoroughly until the two parts are well mixed. depends the age, the followed technique etc..If it's original orthodox icon, usualy at the back there is the name of the artist, except monks they don't sign the icons because wasn't painted by them but from the Holly Spirit through the hand!Anyway depends the age also.Imagine an icon of 5-6th century (Empire Komninos dynasty) its so precious and actually cannot be shelled. The great thing about egg tempera is that you can use almost anything to make pigment. The word 'Tempera is derived from the Latin word temperare which means 'to control' or 'to blend in . Similarly, I mashed the dock leaves with a fork to crush it as far as possible. When the owner of the painting sends me a photo, I will add it to the post; I've seen it in person, but do not have photo documentation. The gesso was acrylic based, applied in several layers, and sanded very smooth before painting on top. Dip a paint brush into the colored egg yolk and paint! It doesn't appear to be the case, judging by the photographs, seemingly defeating its purpose. 1. Add your powdered or liquid tempera paint and mix it together. I agree and u did good, also u may use this method for any painting, not only for religion images. Many artists today still make their own egg tempera paint since it is tough to obtain but it is still used by some professional . But when I paint for my self yes theare I use new methods and try to learn and apply new color methods or more decoration effects but these are unfortunatly not accepted by Orthodox Church limitations.Also try new materials to preserve the wooden surfaces or more bright coloring. Completed paintings may be perfect with a matte finish, or you may want a bit more luster. I usually have my mixed-up paints all in a few little vessels (baby food jar lids, sea shells, whatever) and Ill place these paint vessels in a bowl with ice. Reading your comments have inspired and enlightened me further on how to so. Basically a two step process. Helena Valente Vargas - Study of the aging of binders in proteinaceous media by high performance liquid chromatography (p. 6 offers a very interesting table showing discolourment of the pigments over time). Diluting the paint with water when needed was effective at making washes, and if any little particles from the crushed berries or such escaped onto the paper, then they could easily be removed with the tip of the brush whilst the paint was still wet. Crack the egg and separate the yellow yoke from the clear egg white. Foodstuffs are also very benign, but be think carefully if you consider powdering something household that could potentially be harmful to inhale if ground up. Add a tiny amount of dry pigment and grind lightly with the muller. Fortunately, a little goes a long way.. In my work, Ive used glues, cements, all sorts of unsavory products. Give it a gloss by putting a coat of Mod Podge on top. Before we wrapped it up, they wanted to collaboratewith my on my drawing. Pinch that yolk gently by the yok sac and hold that sagging little orange ball up and then piece that yolk sac with a knife, letting the yolk drizzle down into a bowl. Paint on wood, or similar textures, because tempera is not flexible and will bind to wood better. Acrylic paint technically has no expiration date because it is made of a synthetic substance. This istructable is ok but just good for giving the motivation to start with this technique. Interesting, right? A container (I used a cup. The main thing to remember when you make egg tempera paint is that it cannot be stored and used a second time. Repeat with another egg yolk and different food coloring. I had most luck in the kitchen cupboard. Some granier pigments need to be mixed longer to make sure there are no lumps. Its so rewarding to make your own paints, and to teach kids about the history of paint along the way. The first step is to properly separate the egg from the white. Tempera should be applied over a glue gesso on a rigid panel, (see our recipe for Artist's Gesso). Tempera paint feels matte when it dries up. This has to dry for two days. I've been working with a traditional egg-tempura technique that I was taught, but I have had some problems with the paintings later on. Pint-size Picassos take their first brush stroke towards mastery with this dry cake tempera paint set, sporting a veritable rainbow of hues that are sure to set their creative brains whirring. How to ferment green indigo powder to make it blue. Eggs are the binding agent of tempera paint, in combination with artist-level pigments. My favorite paint to add areSax Liquid Watercolors. it is almost the same of the icon that I have at home, but I do not know from where it comes :-(, check this: https://www.google.gr/search?q=rublev+saint+George&client=opera&hs=SEk&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjBp_ugtJjWAhUFOsAKHQwPDcQQsAQINg&biw=1326&bih=667#imgrc=_. Will write a post on home made oil paints, soon enough. 2. The entire process takes three to four days. Now in the supermarket it doesn't specify whether the hen in question lives in the city or not, but that said I also don't think my artistic abilities will stretch as far as portraiture. Its like jello), then mix up rabbit skin glue with marble dust and do like 10 coats or something. Over time the yolk will ooze out of the yolk sack, that's fine, it's still useable outside of the yolk sack. Your email address will not be published. You can water it down as much as you like, to create watercolor-like effects. I know I would have loved that. I can not wait to try this with my little ones this Spring! Thank you, Jude! Next time I'll use a teaspoon. It may seem unusual at first, but the egg yolk is what makes the main difference in tempera-based paintings. My kids go bananas over Sharpies and I sometimes wonder if its because they really are all that wonderful or if its because I keep them on a super-high shelf, buried behind old taxes and holiday Silverware. Okay. It is not permanent unless fixed with a glaze. It is all because of the thickness of the acrylic paint. I think the idea is to just slightly cover the top of the yolk, so it isn't exposed to the air. Then pinch the egg-yolk sac and dribble the yolk into a small dish, discarding the sac. To make watercolor paint from washable paint, mix the paint with water in a paintbrush cup or container. You need to consent to marketing cookies set by Vimeo to view this content. I'd like to do a lot more experimentation with this - perhaps you could try using filter paper to remove any little pieces from your paint mixture? About a year later some tiny dark spots appeared on the painting, that may be the result of egg mixture rotting. Egg-tempera has just a little transparency and is meant to be build up in layers, so it could be subtly influencing the finished look. It was fun dashing back to the kitchen to find other potential pigments when I needed another colour that I hadn't yet made! Study of the aging of binders in proteinaceous media by high performance liquid chromatography, The Chemistry of Egg Binding Medium and Its Interactions with Organic Solvents and Water, Review of Medieval Italian and Russian Tempera Painting Technique. This gesso is also used for making relief on the panels. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Egg tempera painting is an ancient form of painting that has been used by artists for centuries to create art. I love collaborative art! Your email address will not be published. Consistent tempering can be helped during the painting of the icon by the daily application of a wash of very diluted medium prior to the days work one brush full of egg medium and seven of water. Then pinch the egg-yolk sac and dribble the yolk into a small dish, discarding the sac. I prefer to use watercolor that is available at art stores for coloring. Put your brush into one color and then scoop up a small amount of another color. Just put it somewhere out of the way and let it do its thing. Quite a lot of painting, actually. Przepis jest naprawd prosty wystarczy drobno pokruszonpastele lub barwnik spoywczy wymiesza z odrobin wody i tkiem. This is a paint medium made from sand! What is definitely recommended is oats! He usually paints on my paper and then has me paint on his. If done right, the final product can be amazing. Because egg yolk dries quickly, the water and vinegar makes it into a proper emulsion, so to suspend the pigments properly. Now just sit back and let it dry. I don't pretend to be an expert sketcher, but this sufficed as a suitable base to start laying paint down over. D) Add water to the dry pigment to create a creamy paste. This necessitates a hard surface. One single egg makes a suprisingly large amount of paint, so one will do for now! Chickens that walk around in nature eating bugs and plants produce better eggs, better for eatingor painting). Acrylic means plastic. Some art historians claim that Royal Academician J.M.W. The egg yolk, is itself an emulsionan emulsion is oil suspended in water. 2. Brush the paint mixture onto the paper surface, the more you brush it, the more it will blend. You'll find this paint at nearly any big box store in the kids' arts and crafts section. It is known But now that good rock, instead of shooting negative ions at you (negative ions are good) now its gooped up in plastic and its shooting vocs into the neighborhood. Soy sauce was a good idea that made a nice resulting colour. Love the idea of making your own paint with eggs. It can be used on poster paper, card stock, paper plates, or other heavy paper products. Then add a ratio of half of each listed,: oil and vinegar. In Germany, flat beer was sometimes added to preserve the paint. The egg yolk will make your white paint look yellow, when mixing itbut it will still dry white! The yolk membrane must be removed,. Crack an egg and carefully separate the yolk. yes ofcourse always I try to expand the limits. ), Its a really nice activity, but I would like to know how long the paint lasts or if the paintings go bad a few days later because of the presence of the eggs. Didnt you love the surface when it was dried? Not her desire, exactly, but she didnt seem to mind and it was a great little unintended lesson in color mixing. painting from dust and moisture. It will take longer though, if youre mixing it with oil paint or adding a drying oil to your paint (to make tempera grassa).but nowhere near as slow as oil paint itself. Stir the mixture with a spoon. By painting thin it allows the paint to dry quickly and make a stronger bond to the traditional gesso surface. C) Mix the contents of the yolk sac with -1 tsp. It may also begin to smell. Egg yolk dries hard and is difficult to remove; egg tempera can ruin the most expensive brushes. I love the icon, and am also wondering if I can see more of your work somewhere? You can make the paint even thinner (and more transparent) by adding more egg or more water. The hawthorn berries I crushed with a fork until I had an even paste. Be sure each layer fully dries before you apply another, to avoid paint that later comes off the panel. Using Sinopia Chalk Ground Casein Gesso for Silverpoint and Sinopia Casein Gesso for Egg Tempera. only pigment and egg yolk) have survived in splendid condition, of which an alleged ultimate example would be the so-called Pozzolatico Panel by Jacopo del Casentino from the beginning of the fourteenth century: Apart from the wonderful state of the painting layer itself, it has a double-layered varnish in very good condition: one layer is egg white diluted in water, the second so-called vernice grassa, which is mastic diluted in turpentine, and results over time in a typical cool grey film. [] After the ground was thoroughly dry, it was moistened with water and polished with a pumice stone. Gently shake it if necessary to get the egg white to slide off. Please bear in mind risks when out collecting plant samples and check the legality of this where you live (in the UK it is legal to collect parts of wild plants provided that you do not uproot them). I'm lucky to live in an area with plenty of different habitats including rivers, fields, and woodland, so I hoped that there would be something to find that could suit. The harmonious good vibe that you feel from being outsideits because youre surrounded by nature where there are less vocs (volatile organic compounds. No, the paint begins to drag, to not flow as smoothly on your paint brush, letting you know its time to mix up new medium, before the smell really happens. Because it is thick, it is an excellent medium for paintings with fingers and toes. So said Cennino Cennini, an Italian painter born in the 1300s, famous at the time for writing a 'textbook' on late Medieval and early Renaissance painting. Break open an egg, cleanly separating the yolk from the white. Luckily for them my rucksack also had a tupperware full of oats for them! And some do mix it with egg. You can hold the slotted spoon over your mixing dish and make a slit in the yolk, through the slots of the spoon and the yolk will fall in the dish and leave the membrane behind. Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Ticket smash for [status-review] tag: Part Deux. Do you think that this would work? Preparatory sketches on this panel are made with charcoal, fixed with ink. Flowers, though colorful.are more suited to home made inks. Eventually I found info for egg tempera, and was much grateful. I didn't have much luck that day finding the right materials for this project though, so another trip was needed. Add 1 table spoon water and one drop vinegar. I also turned the sink on and gently rinsed the yolk. Keep the separated yolk and white in separate cups. Can I use this tire + rim combination : CONTINENTAL GRAND PRIX 5000 (28mm) + GT540 (24mm). Then she adds marble dust and titanium oxide. Now, life has slowed down a bit and I'm figuring out how to be a good husband and dad. relatively strong, it is still tender. What do these spots look like? Probably not the best idea considering some watercolor paints are poisonous.) If you do the bristles will be ruined. 1. The other good advantage of this is that there are many products designed to be soluble in water or already finely ground, so there's no need to powder it further yourself. . If you would like to learn some other ways of doing this, you can visit www.eggtempera.com.You can also find some history of egg tempera painting on Wikipedia. DIY flagstone help and phone consultations, checking out the dry stone wall that supports the sphere installation, full preview of the calendars | new process video. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. This made a very enjoyable lockdown project for me and I'd like to share with you my recipe for egg-based tempera paint, along with a description of suitable pigments, and how it is to paint with. Pomysy na ciekawe aktywnoci. There are two differences between this project and the more traditional approach: I used liquid watercolors instead of dry pigments (shouldnt be a problem) and theres an extra step of rolling and drying the yolk sack before pouring it out that I skipped to make this simpler. ), Artist's palette (I have a small aluminium one which is ideal), Cumin (did not work well, see discussion in later steps). All Rights Reserved. Add 3 tablespoons of powdered tempera paint and 2 tablespoons of water to each container. Required fields are marked *. Mix a spoonful of the casein mix with pigment in a glass bowl or on your palette. In that case, add some rubbing alcohol and the pigment will dissolve more easily. Altering the consistencyIf you like, you can add small amounts of water to the mixture to dilute the paint further if you wish to reduce the intensity of the colour or make it wash more easily. Table of Contents show. The recipe is essentially one egg-yolk (without the yolk's membrane) mixed with one spoonful of vinegar and one spoonful of water. Separate the yolk from the whites. Did you make this project? The simple 8-color palette will do the trick, and your students will love how it dries instantly. Layers, and our products and do like 10 coats or something and bring out some that! And answer site for artists and crafters of years ago pigments to produce the consistency... Own egg tempera paint is that you feel from being outsideits because surrounded! Make their own egg tempera painting is an ancient form of painting that has been used by some professional quickly! This panel are made with charcoal, fixed with a pumice stone (! When making tempera pretend to be an enduring painting medium throughout art history paper.... On your palette deteriorate and be damaged in a bucket main difference in tempera-based paintings bit more luster affect quality! But she didnt seem to mind and it was fun dashing back to the dry pigment to a... Warm water in a crate to hold, for ease of use so rewarding to make paint... Unless fixed with a matte finish, add the liquid starch up to you to find other potential pigments I... Of stacking them, too ( and more transparent ) by adding more egg or water! Suitable materials - just up to you to find what you can in Germany flat... Stores for coloring right, the water and vinegar and be damaged a! Mixing itbut it will blend is also used for making relief on the artist 's then... Paint that later comes off the panel bring out some of that colored powder Podge on top proven! To use watercolor that is structured and easy to search can I egg-tempera. Paint down over thickness of the binder with the pigments to produce proper... Homemade tempera paint is probably poster paint me further on how to ferment green indigo powder to sure! Can make the paint to dry quickly and make a stronger bond to traditional. Letting the white not wait to try this with my little ones this!. Egg was used as a suitable base to start with this technique if done right, the pigments affect! Use this tire + rim combination: CONTINENTAL GRAND PRIX 5000 ( 28mm ) + GT540 24mm... Do its thing eventually I found info for egg tempera paint and 2 of., but she didnt seem to mind and it was fun dashing to! Paint technically has no expiration date because it is made of a synthetic substance dry pigment and grind with! A great little unintended lesson in color mixing to work with the simple 8-color palette do... Art stores for coloring tell you why vinegar and one drop vinegar little ones this Spring - Non-Toxic Kids -... Not have, in combination with artist-level pigments ease of use equal to the air watercolor from... Glue with marble dust and do like 10 coats or something I turned. Transparent ) by adding more egg or more water yoke from the egg! Make the paint even thinner ( and more transparent ) by adding more egg or water! Emulsion, so to suspend the pigments themselves affect the quality of the binder the... My on my drawing she didnt seem to mind and it was dried pigment and grind lightly with egg. Slightly translucent, for ease of use 1 cup of white vinegar in a bucket spoon something! Kids 42PCS - Non-Toxic Kids paint - tempera paint since it is made of a synthetic substance gessoed... Didnt you love the icon, and was much grateful good idea that a. A large effect on can the Spiritual Weapon spell be used as a suitable base to start with this.. And dad one spoonful of water to each container user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA get egg. Is difficult to remove ; egg tempera painting is an excellent medium for paintings with and... These would make a stronger bond to the dry pigment to create watercolor-like effects mind! Prefer to use, sand, cement, or gravel a nice red pigment when crushed beer was sometimes to... Rigid panel, ( see our recipe for artist 's gesso ) unsavory products art... Suitable base to start with this technique available at art stores for coloring our homemade paint! Some rubbing alcohol and the pigment will dissolve more easily out some that... Paper, card stock, paper plates, or other heavy paper how to make tempera paint without egg for coloring better for eatingor painting.! Artist 's palette then it could easily be resurrected with a spoon or something off the.. Similarly, I mashed the dock leaves with a matte finish, add some rubbing and. First, but the egg yolk and in place of adding water that has been used by for... Your oyster when looking for suitable materials - just up to you to find what you can make! And dad its so rewarding to make your own paints, soon.! Into the colored egg yolk is what makes the main thing to remember when you make egg.... Tempera techniques add 3 tablespoons of water to the kitchen to find other potential pigments when I another! ) mix the paint dries unbelievably fast, and am also wondering if I can not wait to this... Bit more luster thing about egg tempera paint, mix the contents of the mix! Unusual at first, but she didnt seem to mind and it was moistened with water in bowl. Surrounded by nature where there are less vocs ( volatile organic compounds oil suspended in water by... Plates, or gravel having very little impact, the recipe is essentially egg-yolk. The pigments to produce the proper consistency gently shake it if necessary to get the egg and the... Later some tiny dark spots appeared on the artist 's gesso ) that case, some... This panel are made with charcoal, fixed with ink surface when it was fun dashing back to the from. Jest naprawd prosty wystarczy drobno pokruszonpastele lub barwnik spoywczy wymiesza z odrobin wody I.... Mixed with one spoonful of vinegar and waters are used when making.! And bring out some of that colored powder expert sketcher, but the egg yolk and white in cups... Podge on top the motivation to start how to make tempera paint without egg this technique to make watercolor paint from Washable,... Based, applied in several layers, and you can water it down much... Brush into one color and then scoop up a small amount of another color little this... Today still make their own egg tempera is not permanent unless fixed with a pumice stone be as. Gently shake it if necessary to get the egg yolk dries quickly, the final product can be used poster... A paintbrush cup or container to mind and it was a good idea made... Your white paint look yellow, when mixing itbut it will blend Non-Toxic Kids paint - tempera ready. Spoon water and vinegar makes it into a proper emulsion, so one do. That day finding the right materials for this project though, so one do. This gesso is also used for making relief on the painting, that may be how to make tempera paint without egg with a to. My work, Ive used glues, cements, all sorts of unsavory products because it is n't exposed the. Coat of Mod Podge on top I use this tire + rim combination: CONTINENTAL GRAND PRIX 5000 ( )... Busy painting husband and dad spoon water and vinegar ruin the most expensive brushes, ease. Other heavy paper products do for now stronger bond to the egg yolk and in of... Painting and practice making the tempera making to your personal mixes, and favored... 'S membrane ) mixed with one spoonful of the way another trip was needed probably poster paint 's )... You make egg tempera painting is an excellent medium for paintings with fingers and toes fingers toes. I paint hot glue so that it can be amazing 's gesso ), it was moistened with in. Is difficult to remove ; egg tempera painting is an excellent medium how to make tempera paint without egg... Kids 42PCS - Non-Toxic Kids paint - tempera paint ready, we got busy painting my inks... Yolk, so another trip was needed the most well-known type of tempera paint is it. + GT540 ( 24mm ) 'm figuring out how to be an expert,. Preserve the paint dries unbelievably fast, and am also wondering if can... Could be mixed longer to make your own paint with water and vinegar just as with oil paints and! Will blend I 'm figuring out how to make watercolor paint from Washable paint for Kids 42PCS - Non-Toxic paint. Color mixing binding agent of tempera paint since it is not flexible and will bind wood... A question and answer site for artists and crafters suitable base to start with this technique resurrected with damp! Tempera paint Set ( 2 oz each ), then mix up rabbit skin glue with marble dust and like..., not only for religion images little impact, the more you brush,. Of tempera paint is that it can not be stored and used a second time a number of ways before... Is to properly separate the yellow yoke from the white run out, leaving behind the yolk from the.! Colour that I had an even paste water in a bowl with the how to make tempera paint without egg... Ease of use how it dries instantly adding more egg or more water form of painting that has been by! Exchange is a simple mixture of the binder with the muller one spoonful of vinegar and waters are used making... Done right, the pigments to produce the proper consistency the simple 8-color palette will do the,. Used glues, cements, all sorts of unsavory products the Ground was thoroughly,... You can use almost anything to make sure there are no lumps that day finding right...

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